Debate rages at 11th hour
Posted on Fri, 07/13/2012 - 07:29 in Politics
(CNS): Less than one week before voters will go to the polls to decide on how they will vote at the next general election, members of the UDP government were themselves debating the pros and cons of the existing multi-member system with the idea of a national vote or other methods. As the OMOV campaigners focused entirely on the equality and accountability of one man, one vote during an open public debate at the Harquail Theatre, Education Minister Rolston Anglin said that the country needed far more discussion about what was the most suitable voting system for Cayman, while his colleague Ellio Solomon argued for a national poll.
As the indecision in the United Democratic Party ranks became apparent, local attorney Wayne Panton, North Side MLA Ezzard Miller and Chamber of Commerce President David Kirkaldy were solid in their support for equality in the voting system. Panton, who will run as a PPM candidate in the next elections, said that the Caymanian people would see on Referendum Day the need to vote for OMOV as they would recognise that all Caymanians are equal and that everyone should have one vote and equal representation.
Illustrating the debate still raging in the UDP and in contrast to the premier’s position of retaining the status quo of multi-member constituencies, backbench MLA Ellio Solomon made it clear that he supported a national poll. He appeared to have some support from Anglin, his front bench colleague, whose position was that more debate was needed. He said the goal of any election system should be for candidates to attract the broadest possible support from the electorate in order to be returned rather than less, as he claimed would be the case with single member constituencies.
In a debate that could have continued into the early hours, the five panel members at the Generation Now event, which took place on Thursday evening and was broadcast on Radio Cayman, saw Miller, Panton and Kirkaldy unified on the position that one man, one vote and single member constituencies would give Cayman a more equitable and democratic system with more accountable representation.
Meanwhile, the two UDP candidates, while arguing against one man, one vote and single member constituencies, were not wholeheartedly supporting the status quo and made it clear that they saw a need for change in the country’s voting system.
Anglin said that there needed to be a much wider debate and assessment of the possible systems which could suit the Cayman Islands but failed to define exactly what he thought was the most successful way. Solomon, on the other hand, advocated his position that in a small country such as Cayman everyone could have 18 votes and elect the entire government.
“We need the right model for our small economy,” said Anglin but did not indicate exactly what he believed that would be.
Solomon said the idea of a national poll was resonating with the voters but he could not explain why government had not offered that option on the referendum. Howeveer, he said he would be “proud” to petition for it after the referendum.
Anglin said that there had not been enough debate on the subject and criticised the OMOV campaign for not coming to government and suggesting a debate on all the issues.
“There has been no debate about how we want to create a voting system,” he said as he emphasised the need to find a system that could attract the broadest base. “We need a continuing dialogue about the appropriate system for Cayman.”
However, the OMOV supporters suggested the national vote idea was merely muddying the waters as the simplest and clearest voting system was one man, one vote in single member constituencies.
Ezzard Miller, who spearheaded the OMOV campaign, pointed out that he had made several attempts to introduce a debate to the Legislative Assembly about the voting system since he was elected in 2009 but also pointed to the historic failure of governments since the 1990s to ignore the growing support across the country for OMOV.
With poll after poll indicating a support of over 80% in favour, he said, it was time to introduce the system. It was also made clear that while the referendum may not carry because of the government’s imposition of a legal require of more than 50% of the electorate rather than the turnout, if the majority of voters who turned out voted in favour this would still be a telling result that the government should still heed.
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When you can answer this
When you can answer this question you can think of voting No:
Is it fair for one Caymanian on one side of the street to be able to vote 4 or 6 times but his neighbor literally across the road, 50 feet away, to only be able to vote 3 or four times, or even worst only 1 time?? This hapens now.
Clearly, It should not be the case that where you decide to live in these islands is the sole reason that decides how many votes you have. This is not fair and certainly not equality.
Dividing country?? Its divided now based on the fact that some folks can vote 4 times and some only once.
VOTE YES for logic and equality.
Ellio just seems to be Mr.
Ellio just seems to be Mr. Angry all the time. Even when he makes a valid point it is diluted because he just sounds so vexed at everyone.
Elio sounds vexed, angry and
Elio sounds vexed, angry and belligerent. I think he is cracking at the seams! He had better watchout he does not have a stroke! This is no way for a young man to conduct himself!. Please someone needs to rescue him frrom himself and get him into some anger management. No wonder our young people are always in some altercation, after all their leaders coaches them right along!.
His boss likes him though.
His boss likes him though.
Doesn't necessarily like him
Doesn't necessarily like him but RULES him :)
He is an angry person and
He is an angry person and should spend some time taking care of that before he claims to represent other people.
He's still got it in for
He's still got it in for Alden for dislocating his jawbone.
UDP money should have been
UDP money should have been used for this campaign. All the signs are even in their colours! We should not be paying for it.
UDP mixed messages: One
UDP mixed messages:
One minute Ellio is toeing the UDP line which says that the system doesn't need to be changed and the next he is saying we need a national vote.
Rolston said "raise democracy". How can democracy be raised if they want to continue giving some people more votes than others?
Rolston also said "you will have access to all 15 members" but has used our money to advertise on signs that suggest those of us in MMC's will "lose some representation".
I feel that (like it or not) they all represent me anyway so how can I lose some representation?
Which proves what I've been
Which proves what I've been saying all along. They are clueless as to how much OMOV will help Cayman and its people, and would rather believe the cock and bull line Mac gives them than try to understand the clear benefits of OMOV.
I have to agree with the
I have to agree with the author of the 809 post where it was stated about neither side has truly provided clear indications as to why one should vote YES or NO. Has anyone ever thought that the OMOV could in truth and fact prevent a voter from casting his/her vote. How? Lets say George Town is divided into 4 SMC....I am a voter in constituency #1 and there are 15 candidates running in that SMC however neither of the 15 appeal or appease me and I am not inclined to vote. Thus I am unable to vote as I cannot go to SMC #2....this is the real problem here that people are not being told the real and complete picture. This OMOV needs more time, dialogue and education. It is being rushed to the detriment of the majority of people.
That comment is as stupid as
That comment is as stupid as you are.
What makes your scenario so different from what we have now? I can still have 15 people running for BT who I could care less about. This has nothing to do with nothing.
UDP is running scared.
People Accountability is essential. Now because someone complains or suggest something to a representative does not mean it will get done 100% of the time. Because it does not get done does not mean the representative did not do their job. Their job is to bring the issue forward to the people who have the ability to affect the necessary changes. If it is deemed good and doable then it will be done and if not it won't. The simple fact is the representative did what they were asked to do. There are elements that affects ones job such as people, resources and funding that can literally mean success or failure that is outside the control of any single representative.
UDP would have you believe that fairness is this.
"If you vote for my messed up plan (scheme) I will allow you to get this done" is what we the people want. We have had too many of these messed up horse trading exercises that has led to our ruination today.
On July 18th 2012 VOTE YES for your future and the future of your children.
Martin Luther King said I have a dream. On July 18th we have the chance of making that dream a reality.
"or appease me" How does
"or appease me" How does that work now? A fridge? a driveway paved?
Its the UDP government that
Its the UDP government that rushed it....not OMOV committee. They asked for vote in November. UDP rushed it hoping to avoid it passing.
However on your example...you can easily have that scenario now...you could have folks run in a district and not like any of the 4...same scenario.
Yes, but what interest do you
Yes, but what interest do you have in SMC#2. Your home is in SMC#1. Look for example the United States, are you advocating that Floridians for the state of Florida should be able to vote for a next state's candidate??? Don't be scared of change, the one person one vote, has been practice from the time of antiquity.
Poster, you fail to recognize
Poster, you fail to recognize the basic underlying principles of democracy, which is majority rule and equality among all. Fair voting systems are designed to accomodate the majority, and cannot be custom tailored to an individual just because he/she prefers a candidate who is running in another constituency.
I though you were going to
I though you were going to make sense then you rattled off some typical UDP garbage. are you really saying that you are unable to choose 1 person from a group of 15? If the person you want isnt running you find someone else who can do the job. The same thing happens today! Mackeeva is in WB so people in GT have to vote for Ellio or Mike.
Personally I think the UDP
Personally I think the UDP made a huge strategic mistake by not embracing the OMOV and introducing the initiative into law. This would have portrayed them as a fair and right-thinking party and preserved their status quo and muted any possible opposition.
By opposing the initiative, and then compelling the referendum to reach an unrealistic and unfair hurdle of 50% plus 1 of the total electorate they made a big mistake. Not turning up at the polls to vote has the same effect as a NO vote and everyone sees this as manipulation and underhandedness. In reality only the YES votes need to be counted to determine if the referendum passes, nothing else matters. Possibly this should have been anticipated in the constitution but it wasn't so we are stuck with this form of manipulation.
Because of their stupid and transparent self-serving opposition to the initiative they have inadvertently created a large opposition group of bright, fair-minded people that can easily defeat them in the polls next year with only 50% plus 1 of the actual votes cast: A much lower hurdle to cross than in the OMOV referendum. This was incredibly stupid.
Bush is very savvy and by far Cayman's smartest politician but this time he miscalculated. Even if OMOV fails the UDP will lose the next election since they have inadvertently created a cause celebrate that the majority of real voters will rally around.
"Bush is very savvy and by
"Bush is very savvy and by far Cayman's smartest politician"
OMG! We're doomed!!!
OMOV simply put: "Is it fair
OMOV simply put:
"Is it fair for one Caymanian on one side of a street to have 4 votes and their fellow Caymanian across the street to only have 3 votes or in some cases only one vote? ". That happens now under the current system. How could that be fair and equitable??
Also next week we all only have ONE VOTE to change our constitution why should we have a different system to select our representatives??
Our CURRENT GOVERNMENT IS FOR INEQUALITY and for keeping some Caymanians different from others. Why don't the folks in George Town not have 4 votes because they live there?
On Tuesday VOTE YES for making ALL Caymanians equal. Show the government once and for all that you do not beleive in divisive party politics.
The voting is on Wednesday...
The voting is on Wednesday...
Yep Wednesday...just checking
Yep Wednesday...just checking you were reading these posts thoroughly :-)
And don't bring yourself-
And don't bring yourself- bring someone with you!
The panel comes to discuss
The panel comes to discuss apples, and Ellio comes trying to sell oranges. Ellio, you need to get a clue and get with one of the programs. You are obviously not for OMOV, but you dont seem to be with the UDP mainstream either.
So so sorry i voted for you, and believed all your talk and vigor. YOu have been a great disappointment to me as a GT constituent and as a citizen of Cayman. I expected you to be more of a man, and stand up for what is right for the Caymanian people as a whole, not stay silent or tow the party line and put party before country.
You changed after you got elected. The allure of $$$$ has eradicated any good judgement and good sense you campaigned with.
You will not be getting any vote from me in May 2013. Neither will Mr. Adam. I respect Mr. Adam but he is part of a greater evil that I would not wish upon the Cayman Islands ever again, so he will not get my vote either.
elio will alaways find a way
elio will alaways find a way of not discussing the topic at hand.......
its the only thing he is good at.......
MLA Ellio Solomon is all
MLA Ellio Solomon is all about a National Vote where the electorate votes from the slate of all candidates. So everyone will have 18 votes and get to choose who should be the countries MLA. He sings about how that will bring us more in unity. Really he is using the issue of the National Vote as an attempt to distract people from voting "Yes" to the one person one vote single-member constituencies. What he is hiding from the public is the logical conclusion that under a National Vote, George Town district and West Bay district having the most people on the island, will end up being the ones who will choose their own George Towners and West Bayers as the MLAs, because a National Vote means majority rule. It disregards electoral districts. So the Sister Islands and Outer districts will really have no MLA to represent them that has come from their districts. Under the one person one vote system, it will break the power of the majority into 18 times, the island will be divided into 18 constituencies, and this would allow the minority of each constituency to have more representation. Each constituency will consist of the range of 900 to 1000 persons and that would serve as a check against the tyranny of majority rule (at least for now until the population increase where you will need more representation and a bicameral legislature). Under the one person one vote, you will see three things: FAIRNESS, ACCOUNTABIITY, and definitely MORE REPRESENTATION (for minorities). And let’s say we adopt Ellio’s idea of a National Vote, you will see three things: NO FAIRNESS, LESS ACCOUNTABILITY, LESS REPRESENTATION, and may I add, the RULE OF THE MAJORITY excluding the SISTER ISLANDS and all other MINORITIES. And if we vote no and keep the system as it is, then we have failed to champion the cause of democracy, and that representatives (MLA) are accountable to the people. IF OMOV DON'T PASS THEN IT JUST REINFORCES GOVERNMENT THAT THEY CAN REPRESENT THE SPECIAL INTEREST INSTEAD WITHOUT ANY WORRIES OF THE PEOPLE OVERTURNING THEIR AGENDAS. That is why I appeal to all to go to your neighbors, people you know, co-workers, and reach as many people as you can, and tell them the truth about the one person one vote… still many people are not educated enough about it, and the current MLAs are determined to get back in… so they will say anything to get back in and they will even go as far as use government monies to campaign their cause and lie to you and distort the truth of what UNITY, FAIRNESS, ACCOUNTABILITY, AND REPRESENTATION really is. They try to redefine those words in the coming days. Don’t be bamboozled - VOTE YES TO ONE PERSON ONE VOTE!
Everyone, please read: Post
Everyone, please read: Post submitted by Libertarian on Fri, 07/13/2012 - 09:57.
I was at the debate last
I was at the debate last night. I must admit I left minutes after 10 pm before the end. I would have like to have asked this question, but time was short and there were many other very relavant questions. As a registered voter and a new member of the PPM party, I would like to see what our elected members will do to empower their 15,000 voters. In a country with a popuation of around 60,000 and only about 25% are registered to vote, and those registered may choose not to vote, it is important that the 15,000 voters have power over their country and their destiny and not the other nearly 75%. Sometimes I feel like the foreigner and the minority. I am strong willed, but most Caymanians are not and easily pushed aside. In my place of work, I am the only registered voter and token Caymanian to fill the quota for the allowed work permits. I am not being promoted, trained or encouraged to better myself or offered education. The work permit holders above me are given all of the allowances and benefits that should be offered to all Caymanians. We are not given the same opportunities, but we are swept under the rug. None of the people I work with are smarter than I am. The present government system does nothing to empower me and my fellow Caymanians. Can the members who took part in the debate last night give an undertaking that the OMOV system will assist in empowering me as a Caymanian?
Smaller constituencies,
Smaller constituencies, greater contact with your rep and less chance he or she will ignore you. That's it in a nutshell. More power to you and your neighbors.
But also remember the other reps still will represent the overall district--as a GT, WB or Bodden towner the others have to help you anyway-you still have 4 reps from GT say. Right now even if you live in east end you still might go to Rolston for assistance. He is NOT going to tell you he can't help you. His favorite example is the EE primary school expansion. So, they will have to respond to you more, can't ignore you but your district still has the same number of reps.
The fact is when they walk into the LA building they represent ALL Caymanians or at least they should.
You would be in a district of
You would be in a district of 900 to 1000 people, and would be able to have easier access to sit down and talk with your MLA. Your MLA would be able to conduct easier surveys of how his constituency thinks on certain matters, and he would be able to bring these matters up to the rest of the MLAs to be addressed and dealt with. That is what you call representation. Presently, we have representation, but the MLAs feel they are more accountable to Dart than anyone else.
The UDP is clearly only
The UDP is clearly only interested in retaining their own power.
Otherwise they (as the Govt. in Power) would/could have brought their "concerns" of a change themselves. Instead they hijacked a Peoples Initiated Refferendum effort and have consistently attempted to introduce red herrings.
I will be voting for One Person One Vote as it is the most fair system on the referendum question for 18th July.
Cayman is over
Cayman is over governed.
All it needs is 7 to 9 MLAs who elect a leader (aka spokesperson) from their ranks.
Theirs is a strategic position. Their purpose is to define and articulate the long term strategic positions that will guide the country into the future. The civil service is then directed to make the strategy happen with political oversight but not political interference.
The desire (not need) for 18 MLAs is driven by a culture of micro-management and over-control of the day to day operation of the government.
For example, the Premier has set up his own "panel" for doling out funds for home repair. If this is a strategic direction for the country, then the doling should be handled at arms length by the Department of Children and Family services who already have that area of society well in hand. The Premier's micro-management style merely adds duplication and extra cost to the whole process.
Downsize the LA in number and downsize its political micro-management culture and the country will be much better off. It might even evolve into a place where the government itself respects and adheres to the rule of law.
I thought Wayne was a bit
I thought Wayne was a bit benign and unprepared in his responses and tended to interject too many one liners and personal quips..He will most likely be good for the PPM, not that I ever want to see them in power again but last night's performance was weak at best! He needs to hone his own political skills and not try to be another Alden.
It didn't help that he was
It didn't help that he was sat next to a bully! Next time they need to sit Ezzard next to Ellio. Ezzard is more seasoned and experienced to handle the hot seat. Wayne is genuine and I support him for election.
If he can't handle the fire,
If he can't handle the fire, he needs to stay out of the kitchen. I don't want any politician that every time he goes to a debate, he needs to ask not to be put by the sttrongest debater. If Wayne is going to do this, he needs to get some gumption about him. He is a trained lawyer after all and must have had some courtroom wrangling in his day.
Wow. Can't believe I actually
Wow. Can't believe I actually agree with Ellio for once. I think we'd be far better getting rid of constituencies all together, have a national vote - everyone gets say 3 votes, and the 15 candidates with the most votes are elected. The 15 can then either elect which district they will represent (most votes gets first pick) or they can be allocated on the basis or which district gave them the most votes.
This would likely end Hazzard and 'Ardon's political 'careers' though, so there's no way those turkeys would vote for Christmas.
Hi Ellio....or is that Dwayne
Hi Ellio....or is that Dwayne Sterling only idiots I hear supporting National Vote which basically means NO ACCOUNTABILITY AT ALL.
Districts like East End and North Side and Sister Islands are UNREPRESENTED by anyone who actually gives a damn about their area.
All MLAs will come from GT, WB and BT and all will be party people. Independent candidates will be a thing of the past. In a situation like this we may not see independent candidates running at all.
National Vote is the most party centred system even worse that MMC.
I pray we never ever see this day.
I pray people who support National Vote ever get elected or in this case re-elected.
VOTE OMOV - YES on July 18th - Make the dream a reality!!!
Silly idea to distract you
Silly idea to distract you folks...sounds good until you think of it for more than a second...
Cayman Brac, Little Cayman, North Side and East End will never ever be represented again in this system as the voters in GT, BT and WB will far outnumber them.
Even if 100% of the voters in East End and North Side COMBINED voted for SAME person it would take only 18% of George Towners to out vote them -- and that does not even include West Bay and Bodden Town voters.
Silly, distracting Idea. Not on Referendum. VOTE YES ON WEDNESDAY for true equality.
One of the 15 elected MLAs
One of the 15 elected MLAs would represent each district. Your argument is nonsense.
You just can't have random
You just can't have random people represent a district, moron. The voters of the district need to have elected them in order for it to be democratic.
Calling someone - anyone -
Calling someone - anyone - whom you disagree with a "moron" is not helpful and does nothing to bolster the integrity of your comment, indeed quite the opposite. We have enough incivility emanating from the mouths of some of our present elected leaders as it is, and it is disgraceful. Please, let's not add to it.
Kurt has never lived a day in
Kurt has never lived a day in George Town but they vote for him every time...Gilbert was from Pedro, Bodden Town but he won in the Brac...Arden hasn't lived in East End in 20 years...
Did I poke a few holes in your theory...Want some more?
My point, which you seem to
My point, which you seem to have missed, is that you cannot simply have a national vote and then randomly assign those elected to particular districts since the people of that district have not elected those assigned to them to office. Obviously Kurt, Gilbert and Arden were all elected by the people they represent regardless of whether they live in those districts. Got the point?
Only the people of east end
Only the people of east end voted for THEIR representative. Where their representative lives has nothing to do with who they democratically choose.
To Anonymous Sun,
To Anonymous Sun, 07/15/2012-10:15 No you did not poke any holes in his/her theory.You simply failed to address the point of view that they were elected by the voters in the district they wanted to represent.In other words ;Kurt was elected by voters in George Town ,and not by voters from Northward,or West Bay or any other district;Gilbert was elected by Voters from Cayman Brac and Little Cayman and not by people from Pedro; Arden was elected by voters from East End and not by voters from Newlands or any other district.Having someone assigned to represenct you and voting to have someone be your representative are too totally different matters..If you were facing serious criminal charges ,would you rather have a total stranger pick a name out of a phone book or would you prefer to pick John Doe who you know is a very good lawyer? I rest my case.
yep and Mike Adam has lived
yep and Mike Adam has lived in West Bay for 20 some years and almost topeed the polls in George Town next to Kurt Tibbetts who is a transplanted Cayman Bracker living in Northward, Bodden town for near on 30 years.
That ridiculous suggestion
That ridiculous suggestion was only given as a distraction. 1. Obviously smaller districts would go unrepresented since the entire LA could be elected by GT, WB and BT. 2. It would reduce accountability not increase it. btw it would be 18 seats in 2013.
Still not sure of how I will
Still not sure of how I will vote on Wednesday, I decided to listen to the debate last night to try and gain for my own benefit a better understanding of the pros and cons of the OMOV argument. Having listened to the ramblings till about 10PM- I today am no further ahead than when I started to listen last night, I will say however- though I personally am still not fully sold on their argument, the government did put forward the most logical reason/s why they have objected. If one reads between the lines, the PPM (if Mr. Panton was representing their views) sames to almost be siding with the UDP that maybe the OMOV notion is not right for Cayman at this time. I honestly believe that the entire matter was rushed by both sides and that many voters will be disenfranchised as there is no real CREDIBLE arguments being put forward by either party as to why one should vote YES or NO. It would have been good to have an "UNDECIDED" box to vote as this would have been a true reflection of the feelings of the people as it is this writers conviction that MANY if not all who vote on Wednesday will be doing it along party lines i.e if your a PPM supporter you will vote YES and if you support the UDP you will vote NO. Change is inevitable and change is constant, but change does not have to be rushed!! At the end of the day- I have still not been convinced to vote YES or NO and might just do the right thing on Wednesday and relax in my hammock under my neem tree and let the rest of the country decide. And whatever the outcome- I will have to live with and accept it.
I encourage you to rest under
I encourage you to rest under your neem tree
Big Mac is that you? Or is
Big Mac is that you? Or is this Mr Parchmentin takin the fall for you??? Or could it be Foolio or Hick Anglin.....or maybe Sacred Vessel Seymour....Go who could it be??
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