Cops made to face lie detector
Posted on Tue, 09/07/2010 - 20:46 in Headline News
(CNS): At least forty serving RCIPS officers have been forced to take a polygraph test, sources have revealed to CNS. The reason for the testing is unclear but it is said to be causing real concern among serving officers, who believe those who fail will be discriminated against. The police management has neither confirmed nor denied that the testing is taking place and a police spokesperson stated that it is not RCIPS policy “to comment on vetting procedures”. However, it is understood that the testing is ongoing and more officers are expected to be subjected to the lie detector test.
The polygraphs have reportedly been taken by senior as well as junior officers, including some who have served for over twenty years. Several sources have confirmed to CNS that the testing is taking place, but when CNS contacted the Police Association, the body which represents serving officers, a spokesperson said they had no comment to make about the issue at this time.
Details about the questions being asked or about who has passed and failed remain sketchy and it is not known which outside agency is conducting the tests or how much money is being spent on them.
CNS has been told that some officers have been informed that they have failed the polygraph, which has undermined morale. It is understood that some officers have raised fears about their future in the service and how it will affect their careers. They believe, sources say, that promotion opportunities could be denied to those who fail or that they could even lose their jobs on what has been described as a flawed test.
Polygraph results are considered unreliable, even in law enforcement, and of little real value. The tests are widely rejected as pseudo or junk science by the scientific community. A number of variables can impact the results, which are based broadly on changes in breathing rates and pulse as well as blood pressure and perspiration during questioning. It is possible for the results to be wrong both ways. People who can lie well can pass while being dishonest and equally those who are nervous but telling the truth can fail.
CNS is continuing to pursue information about why the officers are being asked to take the polygraph. At present sources were unable to indicate a motive for the decision to make serving police officers undergo the test. We will also be attempting to find out what the information will be used for and what is happening to officers that are deemed to have fallen foul of the lie detector.
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WikiLeaks is a blessing. Here
WikiLeaks is a blessing. Here is information from the Jamaica Constabulary Force.
http://go-jamaica.com/news/read_article.php?id=29955
Do we need to implement similar measures to cater for those who arrived before they did it and for all others?
If 40 people have been
If 40 people have been tested, then how many of those 40 have passed? That's the bottom line isn't it. I don't believe every officer in Cayman is able to fool a Polygraph, so if they've all passed - they're not corrupt, but if they've all failed? Even at only 60% accuracy if 40 officer's fail you can guarantee that 24 are corrupt can't you?
Simpler idea would be to have a look round and ask how people on an Officer's wage are able to afford houses, cars and boats like they do? That's a pretty good indication of corruption wouldn't ya think? The money comes from somewhere, and if it's not their wage, where is it from?
I'll tell you how many
I'll tell you how many passed. Six, yes 6, six. That's 15%. Way to go Baines! I say again, a vote of no confidence in Baines. Let's stop his diving holiday now.!
You commenters against
It is always easy to accuse
It is always easy to accuse someone of wrong doing, but the law requires that "he who accuses must prove," meaning if you are going to bring an allegation against someone you need to support the allegation with evidence and this principle also applies to allegations against police officers as well. It is all good and well Baines saying there is rampant corruption in the force, but this does not mean it is morally correct or legal to just require officers in large numbers to "line up" and wait to be interviewed one after the other with not being told what the allegations are against them. I have heard a lot about corruption and vetting process, I ask which is it really? either it is one or the other. I read that Baines says polygraph tests are needed because it will be part of the vetting process for applicants to the anti-corruption department. But, I thought in the other hand it was being done because of rampant corruption in the RCIP. Which is it? OK if it is being done because of an application process and all those 40 odd officers failed, well I guess they won't be going to the anti-corruption department then will they? By the way how many posts are available in that department? 40 odd officers seems a rather high number to "vett".I would imagine the test are long and costly, 40 is a rather high number to "vett". Shouldn't that figure have been reduced down to a realistic figure,say 10 to save costs and time.
If the tests are evidence corruption is rampant in the RCIP what will happen to those"corrupt" officers? are they going to be dismissed? PSU better get busy and start their investigations, as I haven't heard any mention of an internal inquiry as yet. Oh, but its rampant corruption we are talking here, which is serious criminal acts, not petty petty internal breaches. These types of allegations need thorough investigations as ultimately they are going to wind up in court. This takes me back to what I said in the beginning, "he who accuses must prove.". So, shouldn't Judges Rules apply, cautioning and being told of the allegations against the officer. At the conclusion of these serious corruption investigations I would imagine someone at the Legal Department would need to consider the evidence to see if charges would need to be brought against the officers. This is how the legal system is required to work. These rights apply to police too. But these tests are scientifically rubbish, even the US Supreme Court has acknowledged that.
It is well documented that good liars pass the polygraph tests, lots of murders throughout the world particularily the US have passed it, only to confess years later. Where does that leave the RCIP then, does mean the officers who failed are bad liars? Maybe.
I do not support the RCIP in all that it does, as they make huge mistakes all the time at all ranks. However, I am in favor of equality of rights for all and peoples civic liberties being recognized and protected. I am sorry but testing of officers under these circumstances does not seem right to me. I do not think we have been told the full truth.
Lastly a good leader always leads by example. Is Baines and his deputies taking the test too?
Bring all the test you want
Bring all the test you want on baby. I'm a cop here. And I have nothing to hide. If you think we are all doing something wrong folks. Look in your back yard.
Yup, drug test me, Then lets do the MLA's, all the teachers. The list could go on and on. And yes. You will find some that lied and are still doing drugs.
If you really have nothing to hide, what's all the fuss about???????
As a cop with nothing to
As a cop with nothing to hide, you should be worried. The fuss is not about the investigation, but about the use of an "unreliable" test.
You obviously don't get the concept of "reliability". If something is unreliable, it doesn't just give "false positives" or "false negatives", it goes both ways.
So, you as an innocent cop may be found to be "guilty" while a guilty colleague will be found "innocent".
This polygraphing will not solve anything.
My only objection is that
My only objection is that it's not reliable and knowing that I would be worried half to death about failing it. I get nervous when people question me anyway. No, I don't have anything to hide. I'm not on the police force either.
I wish the people here would
I wish the people here would make up their mind.
Whine after whine from local people about the police not being trustworthy so as a response to deal with unfit officers the use of a lie detector is employed and now local people are whining about the use of a lie detector to ferret out unworthy members of the force.
I suspect the local people with knowledge of crime and family criminal behavior use the untrustworthy police as an excuse for either not really caring or being a coward.
Blame is the currency of choice in this country.
Another way for the Police to
Another way for the Police to waste time...and money. Not to mention being diverted from getting on with actual Police work...or better yet...training.
As these tests are scientifically unreliable, the results will be meaningless. These tests will become more Govt. papers that get filed away...while some people will be smiling all the way to the bank.
Hmmm... Why all of a sudden
Hmmm...
Why all of a sudden this push to find corruption in the Police Service with an inaccurate measure that is not supported by the Privy Court?
It makes me wonder where we are going with this! I thought this corruption probing business was completed after their was no case that was won.
XXXXX
No case being won does not
No case being won does not mean corruption does not exist.
Be honest with yourself. You done know corruption is rife in the police force, as indeed it is in government. They all should be probed for corruption. I'd rather lie detectors than nothing at all being done.
By the way, does anyone know
By the way, does anyone know how much these tests cost? I understand that approximately 40 officers have had to take it and was just wondering how much money was spent? Also how many persons are here administering these tests and what that is costing, ie accommodation, transportation, meals, etc?
I am not trying to say that if it cost us money, then we shouldn't carry out these test and keep corrupt officers in the force, but I am just curious.
Police taking a polygraph
Police taking a polygraph test. Umm, Well I am sure this is a shock, not only to the police but also to the general public. How I feel, is, there must be a reason behind it that we dont know.
However, my mind reflect that the first thing an officer is asked when he testifies in court is to swear to tell the truth.
"Being truthful" now, I believe that many oficers, have lied to their teeth to get into the force( It is much more difficult for a Caymanian, because, eveybody will know what color under clothes his grandma an grampa wore) However, I believe we all have lied about something, sometime.
A police is a police, but remeber he is still a man. Man sin, and man lie, but there is redemption from it all. No matter what one has done in the past, dont let it destroy your future. Trust in God and the Father of lies will be defeated. Bessed.
As far I know the US has laws
As far I know the US has laws and regulations when polygraphs tests can be done on people. I ask, does Cayman have laws and regulations about the use of polygraph tests. Does the RCIP have a written policy about when and how polygraph tests can be done. Mr. Baines said it is for "vetting purposes", I can't believe all 40 plus officers applied for the anti-corruption unit. I would like to know how many of GOLD COMMAND passed the test, can't be many I bet, probably none if you ask me. And what about the US , , why are they doing the test, how come it is not trained persons from the UK last time I checked we are still, like it or not, a Crown colony. Why the US, their agenda is different, their priority is protecting US border control, terrorism and breaking up littlle tax havens, Cayman included. What are their long term objectives? Most importantly, now that they have been given access to personal data on officers who failed, who is to say they don't have copies of it in some covert place in the US. Need to think long term here- how will that affect future travel to US and visa applications. No matter what an officer may have done in the past, they are still human, we all make mistakes. I think this can potentially have huge repercussions for the officers and their families, not just for their careers, but there personal lives as well. Is that really fair?
Really!!! If you have nothing
Really!!!
If you have nothing to hide, this process should not be an issue. I am sure that when you join the RCIP you have a code of ethics and also an oath. Civil Servants are also asked to abide by certain standards of conduct which includes conflicts of interest, unlawful activities and the like. Therefore if the test is addressing any of these issues which they should not be doing, why should they not be dismissed?
1. Are you involved in any way with any illegal activities?
2. Are you aware of any conflicts of interest that you may have in relation to performing you duties as an officer of the Cayman Islands?
3. Do you have interest in or operatate any other business outside of your duties as an officer? If so, do you have written permission from the commissioner?
4. Do you have knowledge of criminal activity that you have not reported?
This list could go on......
Altrrnative employment. This
Altrrnative employment. This is already permitted in the Police Law. All they have to do is to apply for permission and receive approval .This is the same in many Government departments. A little reading on your part would make this clear.
Business: See above, the same apply.
Only in a truly corrupt
Only in a truly corrupt country like Cayman would the population be pissed that the police be forced to prove their non criminal intent. THE problem with Cayman is the sheer numbers of criminals and and the positions they hold.
CNS: This comment was flagged for abuse, with the user comment, "While it is acceptable to many to have people bash Caymannians there must be a point where it stops. The kind of comments in the post while not containng foul language shows a lack of respect for the people of this country, brushing everyone with a broad brush. I bet the writer would not dare put his name to his commnet. I certainly can. Regards John Henry Ebanks"
Cayman is just like TCI...
Cayman is just like TCI... Need a helping hand from the Brits to raid the place from corruption and dissolve government from Mac and the constitution. The people should have no voice. Dictator Britain will rule over this rock with an iron fist, and then you will see crime brought down to its knees! I hope this won' t be too long. Cayman needs a savior now!
This is not only about
This is not only about corruption. It's about weeding out corruption in a manner that upholds and protects EVERYONE'S civil rights...I'm sure you've heard of that right? Or does your country not have that?
Where is the random drug
Where is the random drug testing that they used to go thru once in a while?
I heard they started that
I heard they started that back up as well... very random too,5ttmj
5 lots of officers weren't too happy!!
I need someone to tell me if
I need someone to tell me if these polygraph tests are constitutional. I somehow don't think so. What law allows this to be carried out? This will give way again for more law suits to be filed and more money for the C I Government to spend, and they don't have it!!!!!!
I feel that Baines is targeting the Caymanian officers and this should not be allowed to happen. If there was so much compeling evidence of corruption, why didn't the brillant Martin Bridger and his genuis team find it? Why wasn't one person convicted?
If there are corrupt officers, then have an investigation and weed them out but everyone knows that polygraph tests are not 100% accurate; it can work for you or against you.
XXXXXX Donnie Ebanks and Franz Manderson need to open their mouths and stand up for us, that is what they are being paid that hugh salary for!!!
Have the two police officers
Have the two police officers assigned to drive/protect the Premier and Deputy Premier been polygraphed yet?
I'll bet some really interesting questions could be put to them.
I got the 10 question on the
I got the 10 question on the Polygraph Test inside info....!!!!!Yes/No answers>if you answer 6/10 you pass
1-Do you Play illegal numbers?Y/N
2-Did you gave your friend(John Doe) a traffic ticket?Y/N
3-Do you like the new commissioner Mr Baines?Y/N
4-Did you ate Mr Ennis Tuna Sandwich?Y/N
5-Do you promise to protect and serve without guns?Y/N
6-Do you have any party affiliation PPM or UDP?Y/N Pls stated which one?
7-Did you used the patrol car for personal use?Y/N
8-Do you wear skirts if we do order them from Scotland?Y/N
9-Did you steal the half joint that was in my office right on top of my desk?Y/N
10-Did you lie to me all this time?Y/N
HAHAAAA....that's
HAHAAAA....that's funny...."Did you ate Mr. Ennis tuna sandwich?"....ROTFL...
Forget ye not! We were told
Forget ye not! We were told that Operation Cealt was continuing, despite assurance that Tempura was closed. Personally, I say that Tempura should have continued, were it not for the derailment cause by the mismanagement of the 'what's-his-name' joker who led the team. Nonetheless, while polygraph tests may not be admissible in Court, I would imagine that the Commissioner must have received HE's (& FCO's) permission to conduct these; suggesting that it must be admissable under the Police Law or some related Regulation. That being presumably the case, I can't see HE or FCO making the same mistakes of the past and leaving any loopholes.
If this scenario is what has played out, there is obviously a reason and because Tempura was derailed does not necessarily mean that the original reason has been negated; someone knows something.
At the very least, the polygraphs could be used in initial interviews so as to prevent RCIPS hiring the likes of the Canadian officer who stole money from the NS Primary School - it was later revealed that he had been previously dismissed from the Toronto City police for similar dishonesty before he came here. There may be others like him.
I applaud Commissioner Baines (and HE behind him) for using any legal means of improving the standards of policing in Cayman.
Perhaps the Department of Immigration should also consider polygraphs as a part of their recruitment process.
Let us never forget: Tempura
Let us never forget:
Tempura was mismanaged, derailed and generally cluster-xxxxed by:
1. the so-called "leadership" (NB: sneer quotes) of the notorious Martin Bridger, may his name forever be synonymous with enduring shame; and
2. the ill-advised and ill-advising Martin Daniel Polaine, may we be ever grateful for his disbarment, and may he stay that way forever.
Please remember to pause and SPIT upon the ground at every mention of these two.
[Hork, Hork]
Let us never forget.
If they are permitted, thats
If they are permitted, thats simple enough to prove. have the relevant authorities produce the regulations which tey are being administered under. Otherwise, anythign that involves any person polygraphed in the future, e.g., lack of promotion, they claim 'unfair treatment via an innaccurate ssytem' and, wham, bam, more penalty money down the drain.
Relax folks. This is just a
Relax folks. This is just a part of what the previous Governor started. You dont think for a minute that because he is no longer here that his evils would fade away.
Operation Tempura and Cealt will never go away until it looks like the ex Gov was really on to something.
TO: COMMISSIONER BAINES In
TO: COMMISSIONER BAINES
In regard to our officers being forced to commit to a polygraph test. Would you please put the minds of the people to rest by stating publicly which Section and Chapter of the Law is being used to support such actions? We are all baffled and maybe there is something we are missing here or maybe need to learn will you help us out please? I was involved in drafting the constitution now enacted and I am not aware of any such disciplinary exercise or order supported in the Constitution of the Cayman Islands or on our law books otherwise.
I would like to add that I do hope that this order of discipline has nothing to do with the officers exercising their democratic right in confronting you or speaking out against you when you made embarrassing comments against them recently.We pray that this is not some kind of psychological submission choke hold or discipline with the intent to subdue, conquer and control our officers? If so we are very disappointed. For this can only further disrupt the faith and trust that we have placed in our officers and in you as Commissioner of RCIP . At this time in our History Citizens and residents alike really do not need to hear an announcement each time officers are disciplined, its not really our business in every instance. It's bad for Public relations and bad for RCIP community relations.Overall bad for national security.
For the past several months the public has been making strides in their efforts to support you and the RCIP in various ways to help our local enforcement achieve their goals in fighting crime.
This recent report is very troubling. Your Internal Affairs should handle these matters behind closed doors and in your own RCIP Ambudsman Tribunal or Governors Office private hearing. To impose on the trust and confidence of the public by airing the dirty linen , soiled or smelly underwear of our RCIP is really not quite what we need at this time in our history. It is not fair to the rest of us. Seeing that tax payers have not even been fully recovered both emotionally and economically from Operation Tempura and all the other investigative operations designed to weed out what some call corrupt Police. We are not so sure if that is really the case seeing that Officer Burman and others is proven to be very much "innocent" and has not yet been compensated his millions for his embarasment, pain and suffering. Not everyone looks upon the RCIP officers in a bad light you, most of us really care about them and realize they are civil servants that try to perform their duties the best they can, with what little resosources they have just like everyone else. If they have no protection and no one is watching their back then who is watching the backs of the people in the community who need the RCIP officer's protection on a daily basis 24 hours a day 7 days a week and 365 days a year ? We must give our RCIP more respect that is due them and handle their affairs with a little more discretion and confidentiality. the public really should not be hearing about this. It is very troubling. where do we go from here?
CNS: Ms Florence, while some of your points may be valid, to be fair to the commissioner, it should be clear from the article that no announcement was made by the RCIPS and, when questioned by the press, the RCIPS refused to make a statement. The media obtained the news of the polygraph testing from other sources.
Ms. Florence, could not have
Ms. Florence, could not have said it better. Thanks for your stance. Someone is looking out for the wrongfully accused!
:)
Florence. Please don't
Florence. Please don't pretend to be the people's advocate when nobody nominated you into that capacity.
I don't share your sentiments. I support Baines and hope he rolls this out across the entire police force, and only wish as someone else has suggested already, that it could be rolled out across all the MLA's too.
"I was involved in drafting
"I was involved in drafting the constitution now enacted" etc: - I do hope not because your grammar is shocking! For example, what is an "ambudsmen"?
Ms. Florence.. With
Ms. Florence.. With respect..What's with all the 'We' comments.! Please speak for yourself and leave speculation and conjecture alone.
Free speech, Yes please. One sided commentary, No thanks.
Who are you talking
Who are you talking about when you say 'We' - Florence?
I feel that the CoP is doing
I feel that the CoP is doing all these things to divert the public from the poor job he is doing on the streets of Cayman. We can all see that crime has increased; he is a good talker but we are not seeing any results from the brilliant ideas that he has.
Can we do the MLA's next?
Can we do the MLA's next?
Can we throw in an IQ test as
Can we throw in an IQ test as well?
I bet 90% of the MLAs would
I bet 90% of the MLAs would fail an IQ Test! If only I were a betting man!
and if only gambling were
and if only gambling were legal, LOL!
What an excellent idea - we
What an excellent idea - we should write this requirement into the law and see if they can squirm their way out of that one!
Good! Make some of them
Good! Make some of them sweat for their injustices to some people! What goes around, comes around!
God doesn't like ugly!
Thank you Mr Baines!
Will there be any cops left?
Will there be any cops left?
i see no fault in this as an
i see no fault in this as an officer you should be law abiding, it would be interesting to find out what kindof questions are being asked and which the officers are failing..if you are not guilty of anything presently it should be no reason not to take the test.. this is good..its just like random drug testing it should be done
Except that, unlike drug
Except that, unlike drug tests (which are scientificaly valid AFAIK) the person best able to pass a polygraph is the best lier. While interested in what is being asked I woudl be more interested in why it is being asked (what will the results be used for) and who is administering it?
You are obviously putting
You are obviously putting your faith in a polygraph being correct - tell the truth and you shall have nothing to fear - but what if the test is wrong?
Best guess, as no-one is sure, polygraphs are wrong 10% of the time, some putting them wrong 40% of the time, not exactly something you can rely on is it?
Want to take a drugs test that shows a false positive every tenth time, what about every second or third time?
Whilst I understand all the thumbs up on 'doing something', weeding out the problems, wouldn't it be better to use a reliable method to do the weeding.
What happens if you get a bent cop passing the polygraph, do the normal suspicions that should prevelant get dropped - oh he's ok he passed the polygraph!
Unbelievable!! So an Officer
Unbelievable!!
So an Officer can lose their job over a test that is inadmissable in evidence in Court? How can they force Officers to take the test? I would refuse and demand to know which police power they are using. I'm sure there isn't one. If anyone loses their job over this I can see the Commissioner (Government) being sued for unfair dismissal.
"So an Officer can lose their
"So an Officer can lose their job over a test that is inadmissable in evidence in Court?"
Where does it say that?
But guess what, in the real world people lose their jobs all the time with "evidence" that would not stand up in court.
Obviously, the work place is
Obviously, the work place is not a court of law and different "rules of evidence" apply.
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